Dr. Dale Johnson

BUSH: So, let me see. Let me just turn this on. Okay, so again, my name is Douglas Bush. And I’m just a volunteer here to help with the recording of this B.F. Yancey Heritage and History Project. So as you know probably, our goal is to acquire as many good stories, oral histories, and maybe artifacts associated with Yancey and Esmont and the educational effort, particularly with African-Americans and the history of Yancey School. To gather those things and eventually have a living display or exhibit in the front here. And I think that these recordings really also hopefully live on beyond that—as a permanent record of the many lives and people that were affected by these things. And this is a release form, and it mentions that we’ll keep copies of the recordings and copies of artifacts, and that you are permitting us to keep those copies. And this is Ms. Dale Johnson. And today is October 27, 2018. And it’s Reverend Johnson. 

JOHNSON: Well, you can call me “Dr. Johnson”—or just call me “Dale.” 

BUSH: Or Dale.

JOHNSON: Dale’s fine.

BUSH: [01:47] And what was your maiden name?

JOHNSON: My maiden name, I first started with Thomas and then it was Faust.

BUSH: [01:53] Okay, so were the Thomases here in Esmont? 

JOHNSON: Yes.

BUSH: [01:56] Oh, okay, yeah. Well I know Bishop Thomas—Joseph?

JOHNSON: Joseph. He’s my cousin. 

BUSH: Is he?

JOHNSON: Yeah.

BUSH: He was my teacher. My wife and I went through his (unclear), the Associate’s degree in Bible study and ministry.

JOHNSON: Wonderful.

BUSH: Yeah, and we had such a great time with him.

JOHNSON: He’s such a great teacher. 

BUSH: We had a lot of fun. It was a great year working with him.

JOHNSON: That’s good. 

BUSH: [02:25] Good, so if you could just review, also then, the years that you came here, that you started at Yancey, if this was your first educational experience, and what it was like for you coming here. Anything you can think of to get going and remember back to the early Yancey days. Hold on, I’m going to put this up here. (mic noise)

JOHNSON: Okay, it was my first education experience. I started out in first grade, and we went to fifth grade. And the school was segregated at the time. And had a wonderful experience. The community was very close with the teachers here, the administration here. It was a very community-oriented school. Some of my favorite moments were with teachers who really focused on making sure that you were learning—which, you needed to learn—from science to reading. I loved to read, so I was always reading at home in addition to that. I remember—I was sharing with some friends who I came in here—because of the community, how close the community was. I remember telling my grandmother that my teacher Miss Scott said I could wear my nice yellow dress with a crinoline skirt to school. And my grandmother, of course, found out that that was not true. (Bush laughs) So she came down the road to get me—took me back home, changed my clothes. So that’s how the communication was in that communication. And I walked to school. The first I ever had the opportunity to ride the bus, I asked Miss Clara Brown if I could just ride her bus from the school up to my grandparents’ house. So she did allow me to do that. Just even some of my favorite teachers—Miss Scott, Miss Ridley. I had a lot of favorite teachers. One of the strictest teachers that I ever had was Miss Flossie Price. Oh my gosh. Miss Price, she used to tell us that—She was always drinking coffee, and she said we couldn’t have coffee because coffee would make us Black. And we believed her, okay? “But you’re drinking coffee.” And then Mr. Fleming, our science and physical education teacher. He was very strict. You could always tell when he was coming down the hall because he had heel taps on his shoes, and we could hear him coming down the hall. And he had an eighteen-inch ruler, and he would always put three of them together, and if you didn’t get something right—I remember not being able not being able to spell “approximate” correctly, so for every letter in “approximate,” he gave me a lick in my hand.

BUSH: Oh, my gosh!

JOHNSON: So at that time, it wasn’t considered corporal punishment: we were disciplined. Miss Price, if she left out the classroom, came back, and even though she appointed someone to take names, and you wouldn’t tell, she would go down the whole row with a ruler and get at the back of our calves. But she taught us (unclear). We learned the Virginia reel. She was making sure we were learning those things, and Mr. Fleming also. Learned how to waltz with him, and he was about 6-feet-2. And just being able to have those fun experiences, and learning science. And we had what we called May Day—and May Day was a big event here.

BUSH: [06:10] I heard about that—tell me about it. 

JOHNSON: The preparation for May Day was: each class had to take a country, and you prepared either a dance or whatever. So Mr. Fleming was making sure we all learned, from square dancing, to dancing from the Philippines—the Fiji Islands, actually, learned later on in years, using the bamboo poles, just going down and clicking and trying not to get your ankles caught in it. But we would have crepe paper, and we would make flowers for the king-queen backdrop. People would sell tickets to see who could raise the most money for the king or queen or prince or princess of the class. And it was a big community time. People would come out; it was a big community event. Wrapping the pole. I remember my class in second grade, we had crepe paper skirts, and we had to have white blouses and little knee-high—not knee-high, body socks. It was really nice. So people taught us to have pride in ourselves, and to strive for things that were beyond Esmont. So later on, as years went on, we learned so much in school. We weren’t fighting—I mean, I didn’t because I know that if I got in a fight my grandparents would be really upset, highly upset. (Bush laughs) They didn’t live that far from here. So they would be upset with me for that. So because we were a segregated school, we didn’t necessarily have the books that the white schools had. We had a very small library, so the books were older. And as I was cleaning out my library at home, I found an old math book, and saw the names of the children that had had the book previously. But we were still taught to even learn to love learning. And I would say out of my class, and just classmates, people here, a lot of us went on to college and to do well.

BUSH: It’s been a great education.

JOHNSON: Yes, great education. When it was time for integration of the schools, it was kind of scary, like “Ooh, we’re leaving here—we’re leaving the safety net here. We’re going someplace else.” So that was—that was a time. I remember when it was time for us to go to Scottsville Junior High School. I remember every time I saw the Lions’ Club sign, I would get nervous. But when we went there, we were received. Mr. Thomas Allsom was my principal then. And we were received, and so gained friendships that, even to this day, when we see people that we went to school with, we remember. We still have those friendships; we talk about those days.

BUSH: [09:20] So glad you had some positives there!

JOHNSON: Yes, so glad we had some positives there. But, coming back to Yancey, we had a principal named Mr. Gant. And Mr. Gant always wore a black suit, white shirt, with a black tie. And he was a disciplinarian. And he did not mind going out here, out on that bank, and getting a switch to whip someone. (laughs) He didn’t hold back on that at all. And he knew he had support from our families, our parents. You didn’t have people coming all upset to the schools because “You spanked my child.” We didn’t have that at all. Because when I went on to become a teacher and a principal myself, so I know how different it was for me in administration, and as a teacher also, than it was here. I would say it was some precious memories for me.

BUSH: [10:26] Really precious. So from Scottsville Junior High School, you went to?

JOHNSON: Albemarle.

BUSH: [10:34] Albemarle High School. And then you did college, too?

JOHNSON: Yes.

BUSH: [10:39] Where did you go to school?

JOHNSON: I went to Howard University, and my Bachelor’s is in science. And from Howard, I got my M.Ed. at UVA. And from UVA, I changed fields. I went to Virginia Union Samuel Dewitt Proctor School of Theology, got my M.Div.—and from there, went to United Theological Society and got my D.Min. 

BUSH: Wow! That’s a fantastic education.

JOHNSON: Right, it changed from education to ministry—but I always said I was doing ministry when I was still in education! (laughs)

BUSH: [11:11] I just wonder: How much of your Yancey experience really created that drive in you and that appreciation in education?

JOHNSON: My grandparents—My grandfather—

BUSH: [11:24] What were their names?

JOHNSON: Leroy and Helen Thomas. Yes. My grandfather owned a grocery store, and my great-grandfather had a grocery store; his name was Fred Thomas. My great-great-grandfather was Samuel Woody, who actually was the undertaker for Mr. Yancey, Mr. Benjamin Yancey. So they really pushed education. And when it comes to the Yancey family—because we lived right across the road from them—my grandparents and they were friends. And when they decided to come down from East Orange, New Jersey during the summer, it was our turn to clean the house for them. So we would make sure the house was aired out and cleaned. And I always loved being able to go there. They always had the Life magazines and National Geographic magazines. So I was fascinated by the books they had in their home—and I was able to take those books home. But my grandparents always had books. I am what you would consider a book-aholic. (Bush laughs) I love books. I love to read all kinds of books. Different genres, books from people from other countries also. So just the push of being able to read, and Mrs. Lee was our librarian at the time, so she would let you choose different books or she would recommend books. My grandparents had an encyclopedia in the house, so it was just a push to go beyond where they were able to go. My grandfather had an eighth-grade education, but he was a very intelligent man. A businessman: he really knew how to deal fairly, to help out other people. And my grandparents instilled a lot in me, and I would say that also stemmed from what I saw here in school also, to be able to help someone else. And that has really resonated in my life, to be able to do what I’m doing now. 

BUSH: [13:38] So you say that the Yanceys were friends of your grandparents?

JOHNSON: Yes.

BUSH: [13:43] And neighbors? 

JOHNSON: Yes. 

BUSH: [13:46] Were they descendants of this Benjamin Franklin Yancey?

JOHNSON: Yes, it was his grandchildren and his children—his son, Roger Yancey.

BUSH: [13:56] You knew him? How about that!

JOHNSON: Yes. I knew Mr. Yancey. And his daughter May and her husband Mr. Eason were friends of my grandmother. So we were able to communicate with them.

BUSH: What a great connection for you. 

JOHNSON: Yeah.

BUSH: [14:13] And they would come down in the summers?

JOHNSON: They would come down in the summers.

BUSH: And stay in the home, in the family house.

JOHNSON: In the home, in the family house. 

BUSH: Isn’t that nice?

JOHNSON: Yeah, that was fun times. 

BUSH: [14:24] That’s great. That’s great. Well, Reverend Johnson, are there any other things you can thing of or that you want to share about Yancey or Esmont? 

JOHNSON: Well, we were just reminiscing in the cafeteria about how part of the school has remained the same, as far as the structural. But I look at the cafeteria: that was our cafeteria and our gym and where we had our assemblies. All of that was housed in one location. We never—I know for myself personally, I never thought that we didn’t have enough. Because our teachers encouraged us, and they enriched what we were doing in the classroom. I remember Mr. Fleming, for a science project, I took the battery—the big battery, 8-volt battery with the light bulb. And being able to do that, I was so proud, like “I’m doing this!” So all of those different things, it just enriched our lives. And for some people, it may not have—but for me, personally, it did. I was really enriched. We learned sports. Learned how to—(laughs) I thought about an incident where Mr. Fleming, in P.E., we were outside playing ball. And I was—Man, he called me String Bean, that was my nickname: String Bean. (Bush laughs) “String Bean!” I bat left-handed, but I had a habit of, after I bat, to throw my bat.

BUSH: Oh, no, they don’t like that!

JOHNSON: No! And I think I almost hit him one day when I threw my bat. And he was like, (imitating teacher) “String Bean! Did you need to throw that bat?!” And I was like oh, my gosh. 

BUSH: Good memories.

JOHNSON: Yeah, good memories. A lot of good memories. And Miss Brackett—she’s deceased now, she recently died—she was our cafeteria manager. And we had good food. We had fresh fried fish and cornbread and greens on Friday. And that was a time of being able to eat, and I was a slow eater but she didn’t brush me out of the cafeteria. Mrs. Carter was my teacher also, and I learned to love black olives, because she would bring a green bowl—I can see her now, setting it on her desk—and she was say, “Oh, dear, do you want some?” “Yes, ma’am.” And just getting those black olives. And actually my first white teacher was Miss Schwab. 

BUSH: [17:13] At Yancey?

JOHNSON: At Yancey. 

BUSH: Oh, she came in here.

JOHNSON: Yes.

BUSH: Good.

JOHNSON: She came here, and she really pushed 4H and public speaking. And I remember listening to Miss Schwab talk and I thought she had an English accent. And so (mimicking accent) I wanted to talk with the English accent also. But, yeah, she was a wonderful person. And because of her influence—and the African-American teachers here, also—with that 4H and “Okay, you can do public speaking.” And my speech was “The Diseases of Black Angus Cattle,” and I got a blue ribbon.

BUSH: Hey! Great! 

JOHNSON: A blue ribbon that year.

BUSH: And you’ve been a public speaker ever since. 

JOHNSON: Yes! Yeah, because I was shy. I was shy—sometimes still tend to be that way. But she really pushed us with that. Yeah, and we had our 4H. Then Mrs. Nancy Luck did the 4H Club in this area. 

BUSH: A lovely person, too.

JOHNSON: Yeah, so we would walk to her house for our 4H. So there was a lot with Mr. Ben Page and others doing, my uncle Ted Goner, they had the Boy Scouts and the Cub Scouts. And they had the soapbox derby. So there were a lot of things going on in our community. We didn’t have to go out of our community necessarily.

BUSH: That is rich. 

JOHNSON: Rich, very rich. Gram’s father, Mr. Cookie Page, had a lake. So you learn as Girl Scouts, go there and swim. So we would go back in the woods, and that’s where you would swim. So there were a lot of different things, opportunities for us in the community. And just bringing it back here in Yancey, we would have the Southside Bible Institute. We would come together and have classes. So the school was always open for the community. And teachers lived in the community. Miss Tucker—

BUSH: Part of accountability.

JOHNSON: Yes! A lot of accountability. So you knew if you saw your teacher, like, “Okay.” (Bush laughs) I’m thinking of one time, some of the boys—it was during Halloween—and they were sort of upset with Mr. Fleming so they egged his house. Yes.

BUSH: Oh my gosh!

JOHNSON: But we had good times, and people were invited to our churches, and they would come. So it was really nice. We were talking about doing Picture Day. And my hair would unravel, and I remember Miss Tucker brushing my hair and fixing my hair so I could take a picture on that day. And you don’t necessarily have that now; they just let you go whatever. So that was that kind of caring.

BUSH: Personal care.

JOHNSON: Personal care. Mrs. Green, we used to call them—I’m not going to say what. It was like one was thinner and one was not-so-thin. So we had different names for them. But they taught us music, they taught us to sing. So once we got to junior high school and high school, we were already prepared, prepared for competition. When I got to high school, I was able to participate on the statewide level with music.

BUSH: With music and public speaking—all these things that were really rich, early educational things that you benefitted from for the rest of your life.

JOHNSON: Yes. Yes, yeah. Very much so.

BUSH: Well, that’s great. Let me turn this off here. (mic noise) Thank you so much, Dale Johnson for these beautiful (unclear).

JOHNSON: You’re welcome.

END OF TAPE [20:55]